When Performance Slips: What Smart Leaders Do Next with Stephanie Downs

In this episode, we’re talking about what really causes sales performance to decline and what leaders can do to help their reps bounce back with clarity and confidence. 

Stephanie Downs, SVP/Senior Consultant at The Center for Sales Strategy, joins Matt to help break it all down. She expands on key ideas from her article in the 2025 Talent Magazine, where she shares a framework for diagnosing underperformance and reigniting momentum through strength-based leadership. 

Stephanie delivers powerful takeaways, such as: 

• Why, too often, feedback from sales managers is too vague 
• How to distinguish between a skills gap and a motivation issue 
• And, finally, why you should focus on a rep’s strengths (even when results seem to be lagging)

LINKS:

2025 Talent Magazine

Stephanie Downs

Matt Sunshine

The Center for Sales Strategy

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Podcast Introduction and Topic Overview

Matt Sunshine 0:05

Welcome to Improving Sales Performance , a podcast highlighting tips and insights aimed at helping sales organizations realize , and maybe even exceed , their goals . Here we chat with thought leaders , experts and gurus who have years of sales experience from a wide range of industries . I'm your host , matt Sunshine , ceo at the Center for Sales Strategy , a sales performance consulting company . In this episode , we're talking about what really causes sales performance to decline and what leaders can do to help their reps bounce back with clarity and confidence . Stephanie Downs , senior Vice President , senior Consultant at the Center for Sales Strategy , joins me to help break it all down . She expands on key ideas from her article in the 2025 Talent Magazine , where she shares a framework for diagnosing underperformance and reigniting momentum through strength-based leadership .

Matt Sunshine 1:07

Stephanie delivers powerful takeaways , such as why , too often , feedback from sales managers is too vague , how to distinguish between a skills gap and a motivation issue and , finally , why you should focus on a rep's strengths even when results seem to be lagging . All right , stephanie , let's

Effective Feedback Strategies for Managers

Matt Sunshine 1:36

jump right in . So , in your article which , by the way , if anyone listening or watching this has not taken the time to read Stephanie's article in the Talent Magazine , you should . It's excellent and we're going to highlight parts of it in this podcast . So in the article you outline five powerful strategies for addressing poor performance In your experience . Which of those do managers tend to overlook or underuse the very most Like ? Which ones don't get used ?

Stephanie Downs 2:17

Yeah , I think the effective feedback piece is one that's extremely crucial , and I think it gets done at moments of time , but it doesn't get done as often as it should . I see that when people are giving feedback , it's either just too general in nature , it's not specific enough . They try to do it , they just don't always do it as well as they could .

Matt Sunshine 2:34

Yeah , I'll jump in on comment on that . I generally speaking , the feedback is way too vague . Yeah , way too vague . Either feedback on either when someone did something well and you're giving them feedback on that , or when they didn't do something . Um , as good as you think they could .

Stephanie Downs 2:54

Yeah , it's like you need to run faster and too , and too often we forget those moments of positive feedback . Right , it's easy to jump into the what could have gone better . Right , that people default to that . They default to the well , I wish I would have seen more of this , but we need to pepper in all of the positives before we give that constructive feedback . That part gets missed .

Matt Sunshine 3:19

Yeah , we , we spend a lot of time talking about habits and the importance of habits , and getting yourself trained and in the habit of looking for people doing things right is a is a big shift , but once you get there , it's , it's just the way you do it .

Stephanie Downs 3:36

That's right yeah .

Matt Sunshine 3:38

All right , yeah , exactly , that's right . So one challenge that sales managers face is figuring out whether it's a performance , whether or not the performance issue is due to a lack of skill or lack of motivation , or set a different way . Is it that they don't know what to do or they're just not doing what they need

Diagnosing Skill Gaps vs. Motivation Issues

Matt Sunshine 4:00

to do ? Kind of that . Knowing , doing conversation , yeah , how do you tell the difference ?

Stephanie Downs 4:05

Yeah it . I mean we've spent a lot of time talking about this . Right , it's the knowing doing gap . I mean it's what people know they should be doing , they're just not doing it and the key to it is to close that gap . But you got to diagnose why the gaps there . I mean you got to figure out what's happening . You know , is it a training issue ? Is it really just there's a knowledge that's needed ? Do we have the right expectations in place ? I mean , if we set clear expectations and really conveyed those you know out to the team and are we holding them accountable and measuring against those , are we tolerating non-performance ? You know , as leaders , are we allowing that to happen ? But if we don't really hyper-focus on closing the gap between the knowing and the doing , there's too much risk and there's too much impact on revenue performance and negative impact on revenue performance .

Matt Sunshine 4:58

I know oftentimes what you've said and I've heard the other CSS consultants say is that salespeople , even though the sales manager thinks they've set expectations , they haven't set expectations clearly enough . That's right . Right , I need you to increase your activity is not the same as saying I expect you to have this many appointments a ?

Stephanie Downs 5:26

day or whatever . That's exactly right yeah .

Matt Sunshine 5:29

When I told them they needed to increase activity , I told them what I expect . No , you didn't .

Stephanie Downs 5:34

No , you didn't , or you did just once , and that was it .

Matt Sunshine 5:36

Yeah , yeah . One time doesn't cut it , that's right . So in the article you make a very strong case for a strength-based approach . How

Strength-Based Leadership Approach

Matt Sunshine 5:55

can leaders focus on strengths ?

Stephanie Downs 5:55

while still holding out , I mean , while still holding people to be accountable to results . Yeah , we should have a strength-based coaching . We should really understand the talents of the individual , the role they're in , you know , do we have them in the right role for that matter , and the right fit for the role ? But utilizing their strengths we can get so much more out of them from a performance standpoint . Right , I mean , it's what we teach in talent-focused management and I mean we preach this . If we focus on someone's strength versus a weakness , we can get 10 times more versus just a 10% lift of focusing on a weakness . If we focus on their strengths , coupled with setting the right expectations not unlike the conversation we just were having performance should follow . We should see performance and revenue as a result of that , but leaders have to own doing that .

Matt Sunshine 6:47

Yeah , yeah , and that's hard .

Stephanie Downs 6:50

It is hard , it's very hard yeah .

Matt Sunshine 6:53

So and we talked about this a little bit , we both made reference to it a little earlier . I want to circle back to it now . How important is it for the manager to look inward when performance is flipping ? I mean , how often is leadership style , or this unclear expectation , really the problem ?

Stephanie Downs 7:12

Yeah , let's use an example . So I mean , as an organization , I mean we deal with a lot of companies that are always struggling to onboard new client or new salespeople . Right , it's a constant struggle to get them onboarded and it is not uncommon that we hear things like well , it takes 12 months to be up and running . It only takes 12 months to be up and running If you , as a leader , allow it to take 12 months to be up and running . And I think in those cases leaders should self-reflect .

Stephanie Downs 7:46

I mean , because if we say to somebody we don't expect you to really be generating a lot of revenue for our organization for 12 months , what's the salesperson going to do ? I've got time to learn that I can figure that out in a few months , to learn that I can figure that out in a few months . But if you say to them in four months , I want you at X amount of revenue or this many meetings , what's going to happen ? They're going to set that many meetings and likely , especially if you're going , you know , managing to their strengths , like we were just talking about when that's not happening , leaders have to self-assess . They have to look at themselves and say what am I messaging , what am I paying attention to , or what am I not paying attention to ? We allow it to happen sometimes .

Matt Sunshine 8:38

Former manager of a business that we used to work with , that I used to work closely with , and he would call me from time to time and share with me that there was non-performance happening . And as he would be telling me about the non-performance , he'd stop , he'd go . I know , I know , I know what you're going to say . He was going to tell me this was my fault , that I didn't , and I was like , oh , I was glad I could be helpful for you . Thanks for calling . Anything else I can do while we're on the call . It's true , let's talk about non-performance for a

Performance Improvement Plans: A Critical Analysis

Matt Sunshine 9:15

second . So give us your take on the PIP , the Performance Improvement Plan . Are they effective ? Could they be effective if they were done right ? Do they sometimes do more harm than good ? Talk to us about the PIP .

Stephanie Downs 9:30

Yeah , okay , so let's just take off the table . We're not saying don't do performance improvement plans because they're going to be there . Sometimes it's just part of the process and we have no choice going to be there . Sometimes it's just part of the process and we have no choice . However , they're done at the wrong time , in my opinion . I think because , typically speaking , when they are executed , we're a year into non-performance or six months into non-performance , or we do that as a last result , right , we're to the point of going you've got 30 days or 60 days and you're out of the organization . That should be happening way sooner in the process .

Stephanie Downs 10:08

So , even going back to the onboarding example with new hires , say , we have an expectation with salespeople that they have to meet two new business appointments a week . Whatever the number is , two new business appointments a week . One week does not make a pattern , right , they miss it one week , you may not . Is two new business appointments a week . One week does not make a pattern , right , they miss it one week , you may not go . Oh , panic mode . If they miss it two weeks , we should be having a conversation after two weeks . If they miss it three weeks , we should be having a conversation . So those performance improvement plans whether it's a formalized plan or if it's just that coaching or maybe there's another step in the process says they should be happening way sooner in the process . We should be having the conversation earlier . You're not meeting the expectation , etc .

Matt Sunshine 10:57

I love that . Here's an idea . So I think years ago someone at CSS it was either Steve Marks or Jim Hopes wrote an article about the performance improvement plan .

Matt Sunshine 11:13

Is really just the death dance , right , it's the necessary thing that you do when you're eventually going to let somebody go , necessary thing that you do when you're eventually going to let somebody go and I think , whether or not , whether or not that's true , I do think that is the feeling many people get when they are put on a PIP that I better start interviewing for a job because I've been put on the PIP , I'm on my way out . So what if I think the word improvement is what really makes this a negative document ? What if it was just a performance plan or a success plan ? And what if you did it for everybody every quarter , like even if they were hitting home runs , like just like at the beginning of every quarter , you do your review preview , and part of the review preview is you say let's build your success plan , the things that you need to do , your performance plan , things that you need to do and that you want me to hold you accountable for over the next 90 days .

Stephanie Downs 12:16

But that should be a two-way street , right . I love the idea of incorporating it with the review preview process . That's the perfect time to do it , because the salesperson is coming to that meeting with their business plan , their action plan . That should be a two way conversation , what they want .

Matt Sunshine 12:33

That's right .

Stephanie Downs 12:34

What do we need to see ? Yeah , I like that .

Matt Sunshine 12:36

It's really about driving performance . We should all kind of be leaned into this about driving performance . We should all kind of be leaned into this . And it shouldn't be . It should actually be a recruitment tool . That you say to someone when you're hiring them is four times a year we stop down and we build a performance plan or a success plan to make sure that you're going to be on track .

Stephanie Downs 12:55

Yeah , Cause the formal PIP process . It's very punitive .

Matt Sunshine 12:59

It's punitive . You're only people that can pull up .

Stephanie Downs 13:01

You're not putting people up .

Matt Sunshine 13:05

Wait , you tell me that this performance improvement plan is to be helpful for me , but the only people that get one of these pips are people that are not hitting budget , are not meeting expectations .

Stephanie Downs 13:15

It's in the road .

Matt Sunshine 13:18

And then they all leave the organization 90 days later , I mean or ?

Stephanie Downs 13:22

less .

Matt Sunshine 13:23

Or less . That's right . All right , let's talk about coaching

Coaching Underperformers with High Potential

Matt Sunshine 13:31

. How should a manager approach coaching someone who's underperforming , but they clearly have a ton of potential ?

Stephanie Downs 13:39

Yeah , yeah for sure . First thing I would say diagnose the problem , like what's really the issue that's happening ? Why are they not ? Are there roadblocks in their way ? Is there something in the sales process that they should be doing a better job ? Figure it out , because there could be countless different things that could be going on . And then I would just say , pick one or two areas , because I mean there may be multiple things happening .

Stephanie Downs 14:02

You can't focus on everything . Pick the one or two things that you go . You know what , if I help them get mastery in these two things , it's going to drive revenue performance . The other things that I would say with that is if we really think that they have potential , I would be on all calls with them . Initially , I would be in the field with them for every single call . I would not let them leave a proposal , leave the building for a target or key account without reviewing it or being part of the process , and I would practice , practice , practice with them various stages of the sales process to help them get better . Because if they have potential , then recruiting's hard , replacing people's hard , it's expensive . We should be all hands on deck of trying to save them .

Matt Sunshine 14:50

Yeah , we banter this phrase around a lot . Success leaves clues , but you can absolutely tell the organization , the best sales organizations , the ones that consistently get good results . Sales managers are going out on sales calls with salespeople . Sales proposals are being reviewed before they go out to work . That's right . Practice is happening , yeah .

Stephanie Downs 15:14

There's consistency in their IFMs , their one-on-ones . Each week they have formalized agendas for those .

Matt Sunshine 15:21

Right . So if you're doing all those things , and that's what ? If you're not doing those things , well then you should start doing those things . You should , All right . Last question for you If someone watching this or someone listening to this has a someone on their team who is under delivering , underperforming right now , what's one conversation they should have this week to move things in the right direction

Addressing Performance Issues: Key Takeaways

Matt Sunshine 15:50

?

Stephanie Downs 15:50

Yep , I would lead with empathy , but I would have a very structured conversation with them , with specifics . Here's what I'm seeing . Here's what I'm not seeing . I think it needs to be a really detailed conversation and it needs to be led with data . They need to use data to drive that conversation . I would also ask the individual for their own feedback too . I would ask them for a self-assessment of what they think's going on and what's happening with that . I would reset expectations . I would make it very clear what's expected of them and then also provide support along the way . How can the leader support these steps in the process to help this individual move in the right direction ?

Matt Sunshine 16:34

Yeah , I think that's spot on . We both have several examples that we could share of people who are not performing , but they didn't realize they were not performing .

Stephanie Downs 16:42

They didn't know it , that's right .

Matt Sunshine 16:44

Yeah , and as a leader , you owe it to them to share with them . Hey , you're not currently meeting expectations . Let's talk about it . Let's get you going in the right direction right now .

Stephanie Downs 16:54

Yeah , exactly .

Matt Sunshine 16:55

All right , stephanie , if people have not read this article , they absolutely should read this article . It's fantastic . Thank you for writing it . Thank you for contributing in that way . I know that . I want to thank you for being on the show , as always , you've been a guest of the show a lot and we appreciate it , and if people want to get a hold of you , I will put your contact information in the show notes , but the easiest and best way to get a hold of you obviously is through LinkedIn . I know that you're highly responsive when people reach out and for those of you that listened today , thank you very much and we look forward to seeing you on the next episode of Improving Sales Performance . And we look forward to seeing you on the next episode ofalesstrategycom . There , you can find helpful resources and content aimed at improving your sales performance .